When “Righteous” Turns Rotten and the Monkey Joins In

[donotdisturb]

Mundhu maata: Idi provocative post ani evariki anipinchina delete cheskondi, but delete chese mundhu nenu evarini provoke chesaanu ane question ki meere answer ichukondi. I did not take any ones name for a reason. Jarigindi ento thelisthe chaalu...dongalu vaalle dorukuthaaru.

Another day another topic and here is what happened on this fine Sunday evening-
Just logged in to the site and entered our own telugu room...the wall is running real fast with text and audio messages filling it. Between who? I dont take any ones name but between 2 types of people - dharmathmulu and kothulu. What were those messages about? Nothing but pure filth - Slut shamming and body shamming the room moderator. All in the watch of silent spectators and who are these spectators? all pious and all pure gaana kokilaasss, all the chinni munni kannalu and bujjulu and other rowdy rascals...evaro kaadu maname.
This shit show happened for more than an hour. Nobody stopped the dhramathmulu and kothulu talking the filth...it went on and on and on and the rowdy rascals cheered for them, the gaana kokilas did not bother to object the filth - not even for the sake of it. Forgot they are women? I think so.

The room mod had to take all this shit staying numb and she took it. Then finally came the rescuers, the staff in hidden mode, who took care of him. After 1 good hour of hearing that filth and noticing other provocative users banned and kicked in between, your help was commendable. You showed the difference between the silent spectators like kannalu bujjilu chichuluuu and you. You have the powers. They just took 1 sweet hour to get activated. Not blaming anybody, not pointing fingers at you guys. You people always react and take necessary actions - but on this particular day this is what my observation is - I saw provocative accounts getting banned and kicked but not those 2 types of people - Dharmathmulu, kothulu. Not them. I dont know why.
Even after getting banned, the scum bags came back just to sip the final drop of dignity out of her.

These dharmathmulu and kothulu are badge holders, they got their badges reinstated multiple times. We all know who the enablers are. Is it really their mistake? I dont think so. The sweet talk from dharmathmulu and kothulu might have convinced them and thus the abusers got back their badges. So is this post all about the badges then? You have none and they are holding one? Not at all, but if you want to convince yourself that this about badges then take my high five- you are always right.

Dear staff, stop enabling them again and again.

Finally this is what I wanted to say - eppudu jarige godavale kadaraa enduku raa hadividi minguthunav ani anukoddu. Eppudu vaage maatalu kaavu avi...and ee dharmathmula dhairyame idi- "nannu adigedi evadu, aapevaadu evadu...virtual world idi naa ishtaaniki rechipothaa... body parts ni describe chesi, body shamming chesi, slut shamming chesi I can win over her...I can tame my ego" idey veella feeling.

Idi neekosame roii- Orey erri gorre nee mola kindhana vaadipoyina dhondakaya ey undho....pedda beerakaye undho, aa sanchi lo rendu chinni chinni chikudu ginjalni daachukunaavo, dhabba kayalu penchuthunaavo...problem enti ante raa vaatini chusi egiri padaku. Ontlo testosterone bhayamkaramaina level lo undhi anukunta...poyi testicular tumors emaina unayemo chupinchuko before they pop out of the sack. Nuvu vaagindi evadu vinaledhu anukoku, nuvu em thappu cheyaledu ani bukaayinchaku. Em chillara gaalluraa meeru. Ee post lo mee perlu vaadaledu kaabatti evarikii sagam vishayam ardham kaadu....Gummadi kaaya dongallaga bhujaalu thadumukokandi....Jogi jogi raaskunte boodida raalindi annattu...nuvu aadu raaskunte gabbu kampu osthundi....bharinchalem ee room lo aa gabbu ni....inko account create cheskuni osthavo...malli ave id tho osthavo raa....kaani nee gabbu spread cheyaku... aada vallani asahyamga maatladaku... leki edava laga behave cheyaku..... Nee mohaaniki inthakanna andhamga cheppalsina avasram ledhu.

To all the gaana kokilasss of telugu room - meeku vere ammailatho chinni chinni difference of opinions undachu...meeku room mods nachakapovachu....aaaa! idi room mod aa? naaku ichi unte chimpeddunu, egareseddunu ani anukondi thappu ledu. Kaani meelaanti oka ammaini konthamandhi kalisi neechamga maatladuthunte orey dharmathmudaa...(oh sorry) orey daridruda aa maatalu enti raa ani antaaniki okkallaki noru raaledu?? Eeroju aa ammai ni anna noru mimmalni anadhu anukuntunaraa? Vaalla gabbu wall meeda pothune undhi and pakka nunchi "Lyrics" pothune unaayi. Sensibilities marchipoyaara??
Irrespective of the differences you people share why didn't you at least try to stop them??
Memu only lyrics petukuntam...memu only manchi abbailthone maatladathamm....maa breed veru, maa blood veru, hum alag ani feel avakandi. Nee roju baagundi kaabatti nee body parts gurinchi okadu wall lo vaagaledu. Needi kaani rojuna nuvu kuda victim ey avthaav. Ikkada gabbu vaagina vaadu secret ga cam record chesi twitter lo post esey type kaadu...neethone untuu, ninnu rojuu palakaristhuu, pallu ikilinchi navvuthuu nee gurinchi neechamgaa maatlade mushti edava. In a way he is your "friend". Oh my cute angel!! nuvu nee friend ni aapalekapoyav.
Kaneesam okallaina aa pilla gurinchi aalochinchi untaraa? naaku doubt ey. Sarlendi...jarigindi edo jarigindi "Lyrics" raaskondi wall meeda.

Idi provocative post ani evariki anipinchina delete cheskondi, but delete chese mundhu nenu evarini provoke chesaanu ane question ki meere answer ichukondi. I did not take any ones name for a reason. Jarigindi ento thelisthe chaalu...dongalu vaalle dorukuthaaru. Or did i take names? Haha!! naakem thelitledu. Sarsarle edo okati.

Signing off ra abbayilu....malli eppudu kanapadanu.

 

[ukgirl]

To the Telugu forum and its self-appointed moral gatekeepers:

This isn’t slander. It’s the truth. And if the truth makes some of you uncomfortable, maybe it’s time you reflect on why. I don’t care about your assumptions or twisted versions of me — because those who actually know me understand one thing: I didn’t write the post, and frankly, I don’t have that much fluency to write in continuous telugu even if I wanted to. But I stand by every word because someone finally had the guts to say what needed to be said.

If you think ignoring this post will hide your filth, you're wrong. What’s been done to me won’t disappear just because you sweep it under the rug.

You abused me.
You slut-shamed me.
You dragged my name through the dirt.
You stood there and watched. Or worse, clapped along.

And all this for what? Because you had a disagreement with me? Because I didn’t conform to your fake, self-serving standards? Let me ask — is this your idea of maturity? Of morality? Of womanhood? Because some of you, especially the women, have lost every right to even claim that title. You failed not just me — but every woman who has ever been silenced for speaking up.

What’s pathetic is that many of the same people throwing dirt at me were once my so-called friends. I treated you with basic respect — even when you were gaslighting me, mocking me, baiting me. I still chose silence. I still gave you decency. And in return, you gave me betrayal.

And now, because someone out there told the truth, you're panicking.

Let me say this louder for those still playing dumb:
I don’t care if you don't like me. I don’t need your validation. But don’t you dare try to bury the truth under the excuse of “rules.” If this forum can tolerate abusers questioning why they are banned when its clear as day how their behavior is and has been in the past, it can sure as hell tolerate one post that calls it all out.

You don't get to abuse someone and then pretend you're the victim when you're exposed.
You don't get to silence the truth because it shakes your fake little image.
And you don’t get to erase my voice just because it makes you squirm.

Remove it — and you prove everything in it was right.

 

[Aphrodite]

By MY orders this post will NOT be deleted and anyone who does will deal with me , this thread will be used as a remind of you are all responsible for your actions .
if people can act like this behind a screen it just proves they are like they show in real life .

I commend @ukgirl because she stood her ground and even though she was attacked ,abuse and shame ,she showed you all she is a bigger and better person then those who tried to tear her down ,i also thank the person who wrote this .
to the staff who came her aide are also to be thanked , i know you waited to see before taking action but you did a great job . this is what zozo staff do they fight together as a team and have each other's back in cases like this

you can cry and whine and but @ukgirl isn't going anywhere nor are any other staff

 

[Aphrodite]

I was asked to unlock this thread so people can DISCUSS and give there Thoughts
but i am warning you any accusing ,shaming abusing on this thread and your comments will be deleted and the thread will be relocked ,you may also find yourself banned

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Let me offer some clarity—yes, I was away from the chat room for a while. I admit, I can be a poker, maybe even a bit of a pain—but never once have I used profane or filthy language. I hold no personal grudge against anyone.


But let’s not ignore what really goes on here.


If a user happens to have an ego clash—or worse, if a certain VIP refuses to indulge in sexting—suddenly, abuse is hurled, and that too from someone like Dharmathmudu, who’s mastered the art of attacking through voice notes, knowing well that screenshots won’t capture it. Is this tactical filth his version of strategy? Is this how we define limits on an adult site?


Yes, adult themes are expected—but extreme profanity, slut-shaming, and body-shaming? That’s not adult, that’s vile.


Can I be honest with you, @Aphrodite?


@ukgirl entered as a vibrant, cheerful presence. I’ll admit, I teased her—playfully mocked her accent, sometimes even pushed the line. But it was never out of resentment. She never took it that way either. We shared laughs, chatted over biology and medicine (her domain), even flirted in medico lingua franca. She was admired—a diva in the Telugu room.


But what changed the moment she became a moderator?


Why did the same people who once adored her suddenly turn hostile?


Is it because she was cold and blunt? Or because she enforced rules without bias? Did that make her an easy target?


Yes, she muted me. Kicked me. Maybe unfairly at times. But did I ever abuse her in return? No.


But let’s talk about what’s being ignored.


The person at the center of this mess is none other than @TheOG.


And I ask—@AASHVATHKANNA, why the protection? Is it simply because your friendship with him extends beyond Zozo? Does that long-standing bond mean the rules don’t apply anymore? Are we just supposed to sweep the filth under the rug and pretend nothing happened?


Shall I share the screenshots?


The only thing I couldn’t capture were those disgusting body-shaming remarks made via voice. You know the ones I’m talking about. Where he says:

"Andaru anukuntunnaru dheeni puku pink puku ani, kaani adhi blah blah…"

Translated:

"Everyone assumes she has a pretty pink pussy, but they don’t know she’s blah blah down there."

Excuse me—but when did she ever reveal her body or face on cam?


Just because she didn’t give him the attention he craved, does that give him the right to degrade her? Talk about her body like she’s some public property?


And where were the so-called moral crusaders then?


Why didn’t anyone from the VIP women’s circle speak up?


Why wasn’t it reported?


Or are some people above accountability?


Ask yourselves—how long will we keep tolerating this double standard?

 

[SiRa]

I genuinely have no idea what's been happening in the Telugu room or Zozo lately… I feel like I’ve gradually detached from everything. At any point, I might’ve been part of that group — either silently witnessing someone hurt you, or just blending in with those lyrical conversations.@ uKgirl For that, I owe you a sincere apology… because I’ve always believed in ..

"Staying silent in moments of injustice doesn't make you neutral, it makes you a quiet supporter of the wrong"

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Let’s be honest—people flock to this chat room not for its ideals, not for community, not for content. They come here for the VIPs. That’s the magnet. That’s the unspoken truth.


And if you know me, you know this: I was the one who once said I’d challenge this entire platform on grounds of constitutionality. Not because I had a personal vendetta against the site—but because of what was being done in its name.


Under the pretense of "administration," we now see threads being locked, voices being gagged, and members being banned from forums and even the site itself—just for raising questions. For challenging a system that doesn’t want to be challenged.


If this continues, what do you think will happen?


The very purpose of the platform gets derailed.
And while they repeat the comforting lie—“everything is okay, everything is under control”—those of us watching closely know the truth.


Let me speak honestly.


The very person in question here—and another moderator as well—have both faced the exact same hostility. They reached out, tried to consult the administrators in good faith. What happened?


They were ignored.
Their concerns? Brushed under the rug.
Now that you’ve openly asked not to lock the discussion—suddenly, reality kicks in.
Now their pattern is exposed.


Ask yourself, @Aphrodite —have you noticed it?


Why is it that certain individuals in the Telugu room consistently target moderators, but never dare to question the administrators?


Isn’t that curious?


Why is the venom always reserved for those with limited power—the moderators who are trying, struggling, often alone?


Why not for the real decision-makers?


That, right there, is the real food for thought.


And this isn’t just about abuse, or body shaming, or dirty language. Those are the symptoms.


The root of it all?


Ego.
Control.
Power.


And the need to crush anyone who dares to stand tall outside the circle.


I’m not accusing—I’m asking. But if no one wants to answer, then that silence speaks louder than any insult ever could.

 

[TheOG]

ipdu idhantha sadhvala

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

You might ask—why the hell am I speaking now?
Let me answer that straight—because I’m “MAX.”
Yes, that MAX.
The one you love to tag as notorious.
The so-called troll guy. The meme guy. The scapegoat. The fallback villain.


Let’s not pretend otherwise.


Whenever a moderator chooses to act with humility, decency, or even basic kindness, it seems to infuriate certain people in the room.
They can’t stand it.
Why?


Because control matters more than character here.


Take what happened with @mysteriouzz—we all saw it.
And after that, I made a conscious decision to step back. To go silent.
Not to provoke, not to participate.


But even in my absence, my name kept surfacing.
Used as a pretext. A usual suspect. Again and again.

"If this person is being targeted, surely MAX must be involved..."
"Where there’s smoke, there’s MAX."

Really? That’s the standard now?


Guilt by past friendship?


Let me remind you—I was close to them long before they had moderator tags.
I knew them as people, not positions.


And even while I stayed away, kept to myself...
Why then is @ukgirl being slandered?
Why is she now the next in line to be torn down?


If your logic is that anyone connected to me must be questioned,
Then let me throw the question back at you:


Was the one who referred them a fool?
Or was it the person who approved them who didn’t know what they were doing?


Because if you're questioning their integrity now—after they’ve shown restraint, grace, and accountability—
Then maybe the real issue isn't who they are,
But what they represent—
A kind of authority that doesn't bow to your ego.


And that—clearly—is what you can’t digest.

 

[donotdisturb]

ipdu idhantha sadhvala

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

ipdu idhantha sadhvala

Arey nee gurinchi kadu ra nuvvu just subject lo okka comma dot anthey

 

[TheOG]

Arey nee gurinchi kadu ra nuvvu just subject lo okka comma dot anthey

telugu lo sepu ra question mark

 

[TheOG]

padha dhengeddham

 

[TheOG]

Mundhu maata: Idi provocative post ani evariki anipinchina delete cheskondi, but delete chese mundhu nenu evarini provoke chesaanu ane question ki meere answer ichukondi. I did not take any ones name for a reason. Jarigindi ento thelisthe chaalu...dongalu vaalle dorukuthaaru.

Another day another topic and here is what happened on this fine Sunday evening-
Just logged in to the site and entered our own telugu room...the wall is running real fast with text and audio messages filling it. Between who? I dont take any ones name but between 2 types of people - dharmathmulu and kothulu. What were those messages about? Nothing but pure filth - Slut shamming and body shamming the room moderator. All in the watch of silent spectators and who are these spectators? all pious and all pure gaana kokilaasss, all the chinni munni kannalu and bujjulu and other rowdy rascals...evaro kaadu maname.
This shit show happened for more than an hour. Nobody stopped the dhramathmulu and kothulu talking the filth...it went on and on and on and the rowdy rascals cheered for them, the gaana kokilas did not bother to object the filth - not even for the sake of it. Forgot they are women? I think so.

The room mod had to take all this shit staying numb and she took it. Then finally came the rescuers, the staff in hidden mode, who took care of him. After 1 good hour of hearing that filth and noticing other provocative users banned and kicked in between, your help was commendable. You showed the difference between the silent spectators like kannalu bujjilu chichuluuu and you. You have the powers. They just took 1 sweet hour to get activated. Not blaming anybody, not pointing fingers at you guys. You people always react and take necessary actions - but on this particular day this is what my observation is - I saw provocative accounts getting banned and kicked but not those 2 types of people - Dharmathmulu, kothulu. Not them. I dont know why.
Even after getting banned, the scum bags came back just to sip the final drop of dignity out of her.

These dharmathmulu and kothulu are badge holders, they got their badges reinstated multiple times. We all know who the enablers are. Is it really their mistake? I dont think so. The sweet talk from dharmathmulu and kothulu might have convinced them and thus the abusers got back their badges. So is this post all about the badges then? You have none and they are holding one? Not at all, but if you want to convince yourself that this about badges then take my high five- you are always right.

Dear staff, stop enabling them again and again.

Finally this is what I wanted to say - eppudu jarige godavale kadaraa enduku raa hadividi minguthunav ani anukoddu. Eppudu vaage maatalu kaavu avi...and ee dharmathmula dhairyame idi- "nannu adigedi evadu, aapevaadu evadu...virtual world idi naa ishtaaniki rechipothaa... body parts ni describe chesi, body shamming chesi, slut shamming chesi I can win over her...I can tame my ego" idey veella feeling.




To all the gaana kokilasss of telugu room - meeku vere ammailatho chinni chinni difference of opinions undachu...meeku room mods nachakapovachu....aaaa! idi room mod aa? naaku ichi unte chimpeddunu, egareseddunu ani anukondi thappu ledu. Kaani meelaanti oka ammaini konthamandhi kalisi neechamga maatladuthunte orey dharmathmudaa...(oh sorry) orey daridruda aa maatalu enti raa ani antaaniki okkallaki noru raaledu?? Eeroju aa ammai ni anna noru mimmalni anadhu anukuntunaraa? Vaalla gabbu wall meeda pothune undhi and pakka nunchi "Lyrics" pothune unaayi. Sensibilities marchipoyaara??
Irrespective of the differences you people share why didn't you at least try to stop them??
Memu only lyrics petukuntam...memu only manchi abbailthone maatladathamm....maa breed veru, maa blood veru, hum alag ani feel avakandi. Nee roju baagundi kaabatti nee body parts gurinchi okadu wall lo vaagaledu. Needi kaani rojuna nuvu kuda victim ey avthaav. Ikkada gabbu vaagina vaadu secret ga cam record chesi twitter lo post esey type kaadu...neethone untuu, ninnu rojuu palakaristhuu, pallu ikilinchi navvuthuu nee gurinchi neechamgaa maatlade mushti edava. In a way he is your "friend". Oh my cute angel!! nuvu nee friend ni aapalekapoyav.
Kaneesam okallaina aa pilla gurinchi aalochinchi untaraa? naaku doubt ey. Sarlendi...jarigindi edo jarigindi "Lyrics" raaskondi wall meeda.

Idi provocative post ani evariki anipinchina delete cheskondi, but delete chese mundhu nenu evarini provoke chesaanu ane question ki meere answer ichukondi. I did not take any ones name for a reason. Jarigindi ento thelisthe chaalu...dongalu vaalle dorukuthaaru. Or did i take names? Haha!! naakem thelitledu. Sarsarle edo okati.

Signing off ra abbayilu....malli eppudu kanapadanu.

reason chepakunda kick endhku chesav ani adiga dhaniki answer ledhu and pink kaadhani aame chepindhi lol many times on wall itself

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

reason chepakunda kick endhku chesav ani adiga dhaniki answer ledhu and pink kaadhani aame chepindhi lol many times on wall itself

Everything appears dark in pink for example like this @TheOG I donno if its his pic or not.....he claims that Its his pic Plz dont body shame.....But He can body shame anyone!! Irony kicks!!

 

[TheOG]

Everything appears dark in pink for example like this

that's my pic...kavalante frame katinchko thalli Leni biddavi kadha enthaina.... andharu neeku daddy le site lo

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Ru planning to purchase another mobile, after roommate trauma

How do you know about my age?

 

[TheOG]

How do you know about my age?

bruh it's a meme

 

[Aphrodite]

let me ask you this have you or are you ever privy to what is discussed by me ,@Administrator @Hades and staff in our private groups outside of zozo or are you just assuming what you see IS the truth.
now everyone knows i deal with SEX CHAT ,i do not have admin powers on IC side but my name and yes when i say name i mean my REAL id is connected to zozo (on cybercrimes reports my REAL id name ,addr
ess ,phone number ) aswell as my position as CO owner along side Hades who real name is on the servers . as for what you assume you know we take in account what users say but only in account and not in trust , we get stories from both sides ,we keep watch ,be look up past history and sometimes if it just what we assume is nothing but childish behavoir then we just leave it because IGNORANCE is the best weapon ,when you give attention seekers attention they thrive ,you ignore them and show they can't effect you then they give up.
it also gives you insight into who people are because unless they are bots pretty sure the words they type come from a human being ,so if those abusers can say that online you can sure as hell know they will or do abuse ,body shame and have a total disrespect for people and women in real

as we say ASSHOLES come in all colors and races and when it comes to abuse i've dealt with it physically ,mentally and emotionally to a point i considered only worthy of being starved ,beaten and broken until one day the monster kicked my unborn child from out of me and i was in a coma for 3 weeks, and even to this day that monster still walks free and has our daughters weekends . it took me years to not panic when i forgot to put the salt on my table at dinner , to eat a meal and not wait for left overs ,that i was allowed to not do housework when i didn't want to and that it was ok to CRY
i have certificates where i became a assistant volunteer in a shelter for rape and domestic violance victims and i help women older then me rebuid there lives to who suffered at the hands of friends ,family and those who used " i love you and i'm sorry"

Ukgirl became a MOD , a mod on zozo so her priority is to enforce rules ,protect the site and the users before being "friends" ,being staff we have to be partial ,sometimes strict and make choices even if users dont agree but what we do and decide how WE handle stuff isnt of users concern ,they are not staff ,they are not the owner ,they dont pay for them to chat in a free chat ,staff dont get paid to staff they do because they enjoy zozo .
yesterday i was asked the question again about "how much does the site make ,how much do we get paid " WE DONT
our own personal money goes in yet seems even we are unappreciated for that ,allowing complete strangers to use OUR UI ,our chat for free which apparently they assume gives them the right to break our rules ,ignore the rules and abuse the options we give even to a point being RACIST all because some staff arent indian or are even from india
people have always complained about staff ,abused ;spammed ever since zozo opened but now with cyberlaws and the fact we do way more behind the seen and have a lot more we can add to help toward blocking abusers or the fact we actually fucking care out our site and the protection of users who come to zozo for fun and chat ,we are still wrong
so why dont users just do what they came for and chat ,have fun ,obey site rules and Leave the staff to do what we do
btw in case you are unaware the report system wasn't our choice it is what google and all bowsers oblige to site owners to implant into there apps ,site etc or they cant be in the search engine and site dont get approved so when users make reports that we go through and clear we have it incase we need to report and send it in to law enforcement . if i really wanted to be a bitch the proof we have of the abuse our females and users are suffering or have suffered i could send into cybercrimes because people assume "its the internet i'm untouchable" but sadly no you ain't and in todays era online abuse is taken more seriously then in real abuse

so the idiots after @ukgirl should really think before doing what they are doing ,same for the idiot who has been abusing Jupitar for the last 8 months (that dude has even committed federal crimes online)

so continue to assume all you want because that's all you have assumptions when really you dont know exactly the sleepless nights zozo has called

on a personal note i dont really give a fuck what you think of me or if you think you know me ,i ain't here to be best buddies ,i came here to chat ,met the man of my life and at the same time took over a chat
i started as vip before like all staff ,i was just lucky enough to be a damn good admin from helping running a french chat site with a female friend before she closed it so i was doing this way before zozo

 

[ukgirl]

reason chepakunda kick endhku chesav ani adiga dhaniki answer ledhu and pink kaadhani aame chepindhi lol many times on wall itself

Let me say this once, and for all—I have nothing to do with some of the posts playing out on that thread. But I’ve watched long enough to speak the truth.

The most disgusting part i want to highlight in the message i just replied to? The person behind it all has admitted to their actions again—with zero guilt, zero reflection, and absolutely no remorse. And somehow, this vile behavior is still being brushed aside. How many more times will people look the other way?

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO TALK ABOUT MY BODY. YOU WILL NEVER GET THE CHANCE TO SEE IT. We all know who tried to get into who's pants numerous times and got rejected

If this is the kind of mentality that thrives in Telugu chat—where abuse is normalized and women are constantly targeted—then frankly, that space is rotting from within. I feel genuine heartbreak for the women who’ve already been hurt by this man’s actions. And deep concern for the next unsuspecting person who’ll fall victim while others stay silent.

It’s not just shameful—it’s inhuman. And if anyone still chooses to support or protect him, you’re just as responsible.

This isn’t just another messy thread. This is a wake-up call to everyone